James Horner's "Avatar"

[violinmusicfan]

Hi,

This is a thread I created for the discussion of the score for the film "Avatar", written by James Horner. Let us talk about this particular score as well as James Horner's other compositions, for films or not. I for one love this score he composed although many people have been complaining that it bears to many similarities to the scores he wrote for other movies such as "Titanic" and "Glory".

So, do you guys think it is ok for a composer to reuse musical ideas he came up earlier in his original compositions. Or, do you think it shows laziness and is "self-plagiarism". I for one think its perfectly ok as long as he does not do it too often. He should take whatever musical material which works in conveying the emotions of the characters and depicting the imagery in the movie. I have no qualms with this "self- plagiarism".

Some also say the main theme of the score is not memorable enough. I say its great and heroic.

So, tell me what you guys think!

[Philidor]

I'm seeing it tomorrow! There's a big interview with Horner in the Times. I didn't know he was brought up in London and studied at the Royal College of Music. He describes the classical music world as 'vicious' and deploys the standard argument for film music as opposed to concert hall music:

He was bowled over by the idea of an audience listening and appreciating what was in front of them. “I was going to concerts and you’d hear the same Tchaikovsky and Bach pieces. Invariably the modern composers were put on after the interval so people who didn’t want to listen to them could leave at the interval — they wouldn’t be damned to stay. I was so tired of the classical music world, and here was a thing where people were staying the entire duration. They were watching a film and actually crying. It was as if a different world had been opened up. Each film was different. I did seven or eight films for the AFI — all no money. The music had to be grounded. It couldn’t be arty music, it had to be music that appealed to people. I wasn’t going to be chastised for the kind of music I wrote in the same way as the vicious classical music world would chastise me — I wouldn’t be criticised for being too conservative or too radical or for having no views at all. The music was all dictated by the story of the film and that was so liberating to me.

He sounds a nice guy:

Patrick Harrild, Principal Tuba of the LSO, discusses Horner’s relationship with the orchestra.

Harrild When he worked with us he was always very gentle, very softly spoken and very easy to work with, but very demanding.

His influences:

Many, many composers have made either direct allusion or subconscious allusion to musical influences. A lot of John Williams’s music sounds like Walton. It’s not Walton, it’s John Williams, but he’s writing music of a particular type to fit a particular sort of film. He didn’t knick the tunes but the sound of the orchestra could sound a little bit like Elgar or Walton. With James, the orchestration and the harmony sounds like Prokofiev but what’s wrong with that?

I've no problem with a composer re-using old material. Bach and Telemann did it, so why not Horner?

[Florestan]

Originally Posted by Philidor

I'm seeing it tomorrow!

Wrong!

I'm sure the music is 100 times better than the Pocahontas storyline, which has put me right off seeing it.

[ddrucker]

Yes, it's true that the story line is full of old clichés (and is in fact, one big cliché in and of itself). However, it's still wonderful to bathe oneself in someone's imagination, and appreciate the working out of so many visual ideas. One doesn't listen to Debussy for intricate counterpoint, or Schumann for spectacular orchestration. Likewise, don't go to Avatar for the plot. Go for the chance to experience someone else's inner vision, and have a good, popcorn-chomping time of it.

[Florestan]

Originally Posted by ddrucker

Yes, it's true that the story line is full of old clichés (and is in fact, one big cliché in and of itself). However, it's still wonderful to bathe oneself in someone's imagination, and appreciate the working out of so many visual ideas. One doesn't listen to Debussy for intricate counterpoint, or Schumann for spectacular orchestration. Likewise, don't go to Avatar for the plot. Go for the chance to experience someone else's inner vision, and have a good, popcorn-chomping time of it.

Fair point. I'll just make philidor buy me lots of popcorn.

[periodinstrumentfan]

flo ...popcorn

went to see a local movie with mum and my aunt this afternoon... i really didn't want to see it but since mum's paying ... just went.

... and the oldies weren't happy with one viewing ...since we arrived midway ...we stayed for another viewing... so it practically ate up all our afternoon

[audiophilia]

If Prokofiev didn't exist, neither would Horner. Some talent, but so derivative. The muted trumpet triple acciacatura figure he uses in every movie is right off the Battle on the Ice scene. Mind you, if Prokofiev and Stravinsky didn't exist, neither would Horner's buddy, John Williams.

As for Avatar's music? Completely forgettable, IMO. As was the dreadful storyline. Visuals in 3D were spectacular, though. Worth seeing just for that.

A lot of composers use the same themes in various movies, the one that springs to mind the most is Brian Tyler using pretty much the same motif for Bubba Ho-Tep and Children of Dune. They sound great, but I did think that it showed quite a bit of laziness.

Disregarding the aforementioned case, I think it happens partly because composers might be lazy, but when I'm sitting in front of my keyboard I tend to do similar things for different pieces, I think the playing/compositional style shows through too.

It's similar within popular music, many bands seem to use the same techniques they used for earlier hits for their later albums.

[Florestan]

Not just laziness, I suspect, but sticking with what works. That's the effect of capitalism on music!

[marquis66]

Originally Posted by Florestan

Not just laziness, I suspect, but sticking with what works. That's the effect of capitalism on music!

No it isn't! I don't make a cent off my music, and people have said that there are certain musical signatures that they can hear in my music. Just like you can tell some paintings by their brushwork, you can tell some composers by their musical signatures.

Vivaldi (Sorry, Phil).
Bach.
Beethoven.
Mendelssohn.
etc etc etc