"I'm not really interested in how Bach played his music" says pianist playing Bach

[Despina41]

Originally Posted by ReinerTorheit

HIP implies taking the trouble to research the material you intend performing, with regard to a very wide palette of factors:

• the instrument(s) which were available to the composer when the music was written - their stringing, tuning, bows, keywork (if any), tuning system, etc
• the forces available to the composer, where these can be determined - ie an ensemble or orchestra of how many people, in what formation
• the playing methods, articulation, fingering, bowing, tonguing, and other ways of sounding the instruments involved
• what degree of embellishment soloists were expected to add
• how the ornaments were to be performed - which ornaments were written, which were unwritten by considered obligatory etc
• occasionally details of the original performing space will be salient to performances - in a church, in galleries, polyphonically, in an orchestral pit, in 'a dome above the auditorum', 'processing through the theatre' etc

and what does this accomplish? "it's as close to Bach as possible" ? And?

[ReinerTorheit]

Originally Posted by Despina41

and what does this accomplish? "it's as close to Bach as possible" ? And?

OK, let's just get a rhythm section and vibes, and make it cool and groovy, then?

But let's not claim it's what Bach wrote!

Who cares? Let Dinnerstein play whatever the hell she likes. I could care less what this mad woman gets up to, frankly. The reason she 'can't imagine how Bach played it' is because she's too dumb, too arrogant, and too uneducated to do the basic research. All the material is there. It's even translated into English, to make it easier for her - but still she prefers Jackie Collins to musicology.

Away with the tyranny of notes and articulation! Just sit your ass on the keyboard and claim it's Scarlatti.

Each to his own. I'm sure Dinnerstein will go down in the annals of the great pianists in her own way.

[Herzeleide]

Originally Posted by Scott Good

And the Timbral "evolution" of Grisey and electroacoustic music pointed us to a highly discerning concept of sound it'self.

Too bad electro-acoustic music uses speakers whose sound-quality is inferior to that of acoustic music.

[Despina41]

Originally Posted by ReinerTorheit

Away with the tyranny of notes and articulation! Just sit your ass on the keyboard and claim it's Scarlatti.

I think we all know that vocal music was the most elevated kind in the baroque era, so that pianists attempting to mimic the harpsichord's natural detached style are missing the fact that we harpsichordists often try to create cantibile lines with inflection within them, like a good Lully singer.

Here you go, you can pick out the Dinnerstein and tell us what makes it bad music. You can, while you're at it, critique all the others too; who hits all the HIP markers of acceptability for you?

And if you can't be bothered, I'll have to start a new thread about you ---
"'I have no time to listen to Bach performance,' says music connoisseur who complains about Bach performance."




And if you really can't bear to listen to entire selections (I can't), go straight to the youtube page. The links to each particular timing are listed there so you can skip around and compare.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9_wzsfEpyY

[Treestump]

Originally Posted by ReinerTorheit

JS Bach's son, CPE Bach, published an extensive manual about the technique of playing keyboard instruments - and more particularly about the interpretation of music of the period.

There are many further books by eminent musicians of the day which detail meticulously how elements of rhythm, articulation, embellishment, ornamentation and other elements of performance are approached by fine players. Quantz - who was a flautist in the Dresden 'Orchestra Of The Heavens', the most highly-paid musicians in Europe at the time - went into great detail on these matters.

But Dinnerstein can't get off her ignorant lazy butt. She's typical of the kind of pig-ignorant, arrogant modern performer we don't need.

Treestump - you spend most of your time on these forums bleating away about the pathetic standards of people who don't give a damn how they play.

And now you wash-up here cheering-on amateurish can't-be-arsed claptrap?

I'm not. However I now understand very well why some people can't pass exams. You have to read the questions very carefully. In this case it is a statement.

There is a huge difference between "I am not really interested in how Bach played his music" and "I am not really interested in how the scholars think that Bach played his music."

She said "I am not really interested in how Bach played his music."
I agree with this simply because I am never actually ever going to be able to find out exactly what he did. I wasn't there. The phonograph and gramophone had not yet been invented. There are writings about what he did. Did he play everything exactly the same every time? We will never know.

As a piece of publicity it is brilliant. So many people have fallen for it on this thread and started arguing about stuff which has nothing to do with the original statement, but I expect you will remember her name and which composer she is playing. It certainly worked.

[ReinerTorheit]

Originally Posted by Treestump

I am never actually ever going to be able to find out exactly what he did. I wasn't there. The phonograph and gramophone had not yet been invented. There are writings about what he did.

As a piece of publicity it is brilliant. So many people have fallen for it on this thread and started arguing about stuff which has nothing to do with the original statement, but I expect you will remember her name and which composer she is playing. It certainly worked.

When the entire corpus of written evidence agrees in detail on the interpretation of this music, there seems strongly likelihood that we do, indeed, know in great detail how Bach played his music.

As I said - it's been YOU who has been complaining that people make no effort to prepare for their performances (in community orchestras) and don't practice their parts beforehand - and now here YOU are, saying that any old rubbish will do?

Hello

So you believe Dinnerstein's Circus Ringmaster schtick has "certainly worked"?

Is that how you see baroque music? A kind of three-cup trick in which the best performance is the one which hides the ball best?

[Quijote]

Originally Posted by Despina41

Here you go, you can pick out the Dinnerstein and tell us what makes it bad music. You can, while you're at it, critique all the others too; who hits all the HIP markers of acceptability for you?

And if you can't be bothered, I'll have to start a new thread about you ---
"'I have no time to listen to Bach performance,' says music connoisseur who complains about Bach performance."


And if you really can't bear to listen to entire selections (I can't), go straight to the youtube page. The links to each particular timing are listed there so you can skip around and compare.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9_wzsfEpyY

What a super quiz, Despina, I shall confer "rep" on you for this !!
I must admit I can't identify the players, other than perhaps n° 1 is Glenn Gould. Am I right? You're quite right, some are really hard to listen to, but still, a great idea of yours. If nobody else replies, please do let me know which extract was the 'Dinnerstein', though I do have a sneaking idea.

[Quijote]

Nobody else going to play? I have to withdraw because Despina sent me a PM with the answers. I was totally wrong about the Gould, by the way!

[ReinerTorheit]

I can see how one might think No 1 was Gould, because it mirrors his dynamic shaping of the variation. But Gould is faster and more accurate than that

You can spot Gould's immaculate voice-leading instantly when he finally appears

But some of these are so very horrible that I lost the will to live, and zipped on ahead with the fast-fwd once I'd got the measure of how little most of them had to say.

Who on earth is No 2? It's unimaginably bad It's hard to imagine who might hate Bach enough to do this to his work

For my money I am very happy with this



Meanwhile, whilst I have some reservations about her performance of the entire set of variations, there are some wise words said here:

[Herzeleide]

Jazz pianist Keith Jarrett playing some Bach -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQFIe...feature=fvwrel

On the harpsichord too! -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5U4E5E1Mgg

I like it. What does everyone else think?