Musical writing

[Balthazar]

Originally Posted by ReinerTorheit

So a lot of it is what your ear has been fed on

Right. The effect only seems instantaneous.

Furthermore, I don't consider it any great disadvantage if music requires a modicum of intellectual engagement. I'm not a music theorist, but even a rudimentary formal understanding enhances my appreciation. If it's a requirement that "you have to know virtually nothing" to appreciate certain music, I'm not sure why we should consider that a big plus.

[Musaeus]

Originally Posted by Balthazar

Furthermore, I don't consider it any great disadvantage if music requires a modicum of intellectual engagement. I'm not a music theorist, but even a rudimentary formal understanding enhances my appreciation. If it's a requirement that "you have to know virtually nothing" to appreciate certain music, I'm not sure why we should consider that a big plus.

I don't think we should necessarily consider it a big plus at all - as in other arts, there is music that appeals to the conoisseur much more than to the less sophisticated. Equally, there is much music that needs at the very most minimal previous experience - music that will appeal to a four-year-old who has heard no music before (if such a child could be found). There are many composers (Mozart being surely the greatest in this field) who have been extraordinarily skilful at appealing to all levels of sophistication. This applies to some of the modernists, such as Stravinsky and Britten, as well.

Scott -
your concert does sound a remarkable success. I admit I am quite surprised that the Cage etc went down so well! Very interesting.......

[Mambo]

Originally Posted by Musaeus

I don't think we should necessarily consider it a big plus at all - as in other arts, there is music that appeals to the conoisseur much more than to the less sophisticated. Equally, there is much music that needs at the very most minimal previous experience - music that will appeal to a four-year-old who has heard no music before (if such a child could be found). There are many composers (Mozart being surely the greatest in this field) who have been extraordinarily skilful at appealing to all levels of sophistication. This applies to some of the modernists, such as Stravinsky and Britten, as well.

Scott -
your concert does sound a remarkable success. I admit I am quite surprised that the Cage etc went down so well! Very interesting.......

i was surprised too that Cage and the others were listened to with
what sounded like a worthy reception.
Did you (Scott) perhaps ask audience members if they would like to hear more of this kind of music in the future.
The 'blue collar' reference may be somewhat like profiling (but i dont think you meant it that way)
(like at airports, and so on) -
But we know that one does not have to be white, Anglo-Saxon,
American Protestants, or otherwise to listen to music.
My uncle, who worked in a steel mill, was quite a Bela Bartok fanatic!

Musaeus - i remember one of the first Stravinsky pieces i heard
- "The Rite of Spring" and marveled at the dissonances - it was
pretty advanced for 1913 audiences. Then i listened to more
Stravinsky and it was not nearly as dissonant.
He did though have a later period in which he used the 12-tone
technique - like his ballet Agon (1957).
Benjamin Britten is a good composer for an intro to modern music,
if one has not heard much of it.

[Mambo]

Originally Posted by ReinerTorheit

Exactly so. We are 'conditioned' into hearing beauty in major chords. But in the C14th they were considered to be horribly clashing dissonances, and it was a grave error to write them in music - even if they occurred accidentally.

Still earlier, in the C10th and C11th, major 2nds and 9ths were considered excellent consonances, although major 3rds were discords.

Outside Western music there are entire sound-worlds which function on a radically different scheme of priorities (rhythm or timbre prioritised over melody or harmony, for example).

So a lot of it is what your ear has been fed on

The final sentence is the best.
And i agree on the non-Western music. I wonder how some of
the primitive tribes may react to what we consider as dissonant
harmonies, if it was played to them. They mainly use rhythm and what ever is available to produce sound , like animal skins for
drums, sticks to rap with and so on.
I believe though that something as sophisticated as a marimba, was
developed in diverse places, probably without their mutual
knowledge, like Bushmen in south Africa, and tribes in Central and northern South America.
interesting ,Reiner, how major seconds and major ninths were considered as dissonant in the 10th and 11th C. while major thirds
were discords - are there any examples of these that we can listen
to today (?)/ they would be quite in our now 'modern music'
category

[Mambo]

Originally Posted by Mambo

interesting ,Reiner, how major seconds and major ninths were considered as dissonant in the 10th and 11th C.

let me correct that to major 2nds and major 9ths as being
Consonant / i am nowadays always thinking of them as
dissonant, hence my first (incorrect) use of that word in the original

[ReinerTorheit]

Originally Posted by Mambo

let me correct that to major 2nds and major 9ths as being
Consonant / i am nowadays always thinking of them as
dissonant, hence my first (incorrect) use of that word in the original

The main source for this information is the C9th treatise Musica Enchiriadis, and its enormously longer appendix of examples Scolica Enchiriadis.

It's really remarkable that such a detailed textbook of the period survives. Sometimes the information in these books is complex, baffling, and even contradictory. But it presents a fascinating overview into the world of polyphony as practiced in France (and thus in neighbouring nations who were under French cultural influence at the time) in the C9th & C10th. And possibly earlier, since it must have taken a considerable amount of development to arrive at such a sophisticated level of composition and music-making.

Worth remembering that the main examples of Notre-Dame Polyphony (which is fully 300 years later than the Enchiriadis source) survive in manuscripts in the monastic library of St Andrews, Scotland. So the distribution of this musical style appears to have gone far further than Paris

[Mambo]

Originally Posted by ReinerTorheit

The main source for this information is the C9th treatise Musica Enchiriadis, and its enormously longer appendix of examples Scolica Enchiriadis.

It's really remarkable that such a detailed textbook of the period survives. Sometimes the information in these books is complex, baffling, and even contradictory. But it presents a fascinating overview into the world of polyphony as practiced in France (and thus in neighbouring nations who were under French cultural influence at the time) in the C9th & C10th. And possibly earlier, since it must have taken a considerable amount of development to arrive at such a sophisticated level of composition and music-making.

Worth remembering that the main examples of Notre-Dame Polyphony (which is fully 300 years later than the Enchiriadis source) survive in manuscripts in the monastic library of St Andrews, Scotland. So the distribution of this musical style appears to have gone far further than Paris

it looks like a good article, thanks RT.
i'll print it out to read later.
to listen to music this far back may be a little difficult to access.
maybe someone who has looked at the manuscript has tried to play it.
and if we start to visit non-Western cultures, their sophistication at early music making may surprise us (i'm thinking of China, India,
and so on)